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I mean if you want to play that route if you Disembark out a rhino using the side you must see into the rhino if you command squad and when out 2 door, then wouldnt there be a LoS passing through the doors? There was a long discussion on this comment a while ago. Weird how some people will do the darnedest things to get an advantage.
If the doors are closed, the storm bolter has no line of sight and technically cannot fire. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me. I believe that as soon as it hits the doors blow open and stay that way. The answer was both poorly thought out and confusing. But nothing in any rules stat this or that you even have to open them, nor do they say they need to be open to even disembark. I laughed so hard at this.
Like, to the point I want to try this just to see the looks my buddies give me lol. Actually with all the rulings there, if the doors are glued shut they are modelling for an advantage, and if the doors are able to open they are modelling for an advantage.
What if you own 13 drop pods and you already glued the doors shut like in 4th edition and now you are a cheater seems legit! Then you get a template of some sort that you use under the pod and agree that one ca draw a line of sight through the pods. It needs to be clarified better. Got a link to support this? I really think you have been suckered or have mis-read the rules. Some people are arguing that the door is part of the model, but not part of the hull.
Once deployed, the doors are opened, then the unit must disembark. Now you refer to the rules for disembarking, specifically from open-topped vehicles. Any point of an open topped vehicle may be used as a disembarkation point. As the FAQ indicates that the doors now deployed count as part of the model, the full length of the door may be used as a disembarkation point.
That is how people are doing it. So scumbags can model for advantage by having doors swing open and then claim the extra space by RAW, and those same scumfucks are also the guys that just measure 1 fig in a unit for movement and then move the rest willy nilly. You should provide feedback about them on the facebook page explaining the issue clearly and calmly.
You would be surprised the progress they are making. Good god, glaidus pod armies are almost unbeatable now. Physically, you can take the Flesh Tearers detachment for 6 fast slots. Thats 17 pods turn 1 and 18 pods turn 2. You spam objectives and see if you opponent can take them all out. Door open pods turn 1 to restrict movement then closed door pods turn 2 to block sight and fill in dead pod holes.
Well, I actually Had this idea on dakka before this happened. I wanted to make a maze and have my opponent have to navigate it to get to objectives. The only thing that changed is that the Minotaur Pod Labryinth is now viable competitively and you will get guaranteed laughs or tears.
Zone of mortalas board then? The thing is, 10 pods are too much for them to handle usually, but no reasonable player takes 10 pods to a friendly game. The reason it sucks to play against eldar, usually tau and deathstars is that you do not play against them. They just do what ever they want to and you hope that you survive. Sorry, I have a genuine and perhaps silly question… Who on earth do you play against that has 35 drop pods, much less who will play with them in the way described above?
I call it the Exterminatus list. Not to mention if you take an asset. I saw a guy with a 12x pod gladius at Adepticon So thats a thing… see above for the reason i wanted 35x pods. Well If you buy 17 drop pods and model them, hell you should be able to use them. Have you seen anyone play with more than 10 drop pods?
Also I say you either drop pod the pod in with doors open or closed. Other wise, like the post above said, behind cover the marines are swimming or buried in the ground next turn when they can shoot, they are standing up.
I dream of that but good Lord the cost! Ive seen 12x used in a tourney. Thats the most ive seen IRL. What if you bought pods online and they came glued but the ones you own open? I mean theres not much that can be done with how badly pods are built sometimes. They only disallow specific things that would normally be allowed in other circumstances. Sorry I was talking about opening and closing doors throughout the game. Yeah that is going to cause problems with many people lol. I can see them opening it then closing multi times, or seeing if they can.
It you be very nearsighted to read it as what you can do without considering what you cannot. Both sides of the coin must be evaluated. Most builders fk it up, and glue it shut inadvertently. The rules do not state that the model must be actuated.
The intent of the model is designed to be dynamic. This is not pointed at you personally, only your comment. If you cannot handle it or you take it very personally, I apologize. Where is the rule against using loaded dice? Where is the rule against playing deafening music to make your opponent just give up while you use ear plugs?
My examples are extremes, but they follow the logic that was used. The way I play Drop Pods go like this:. Im going to submit it to the FAQ. Because we will soo experience…. Rainbow marines here i come!!!! Yeah it used to say that the door blew open on landing and that the measuring for disembarking came from the hull. Huge units of characters and smaller units from multiple chapters no longer gaining their Chapter Tactics rules is a wonderful and welcome change.
Sweet, but you no longer gain the saucy White Scars buffs. Can still make a powerful deathstar, and the stubborn competitive players will find a way to make it work, but it is a nice kick in the plums to tone it down. Im sure they are not affected as the powers effect the unit that there in there no special rules, But i think a GK FAQ is imminent. The endless whining of marine players using these combinations that now got nerfed will scare the GW and on top of that they will get some sort of power boost.
Because marines should not be able to lose. The way I built my Ultramarines is actually not affected by these changes at all. My White Scars Gladius is not affected either besides the clarification on Drop Pods using 3 of em which is quite unimportant for me…. Super-friends is just a term being coined for when you use allied independent characters from multiple different armies that combine into one unit, sharing special rules, creating a group of super friends just like the old Justice League cartoon of the same name.
This is most often seen in Imperial armies, as they have the greatest number of Battle-brother allies that can give you a larger assortment of independent characters to draw from to create your super-friends list. So a mindless cheese tactic that boils down to no one wanting to play with you. Stating a fact and the almost certain consequences it leads to is not whining. You should grow past that point you are at now in which the truth offends you. Otherwise some serious nonsense will occur.
Disembarking still happens from the access point that is in the main hull. On top of that, since models can not be placed over other models dropping the pod in to area terrain can really kill the passengers. Sadly, any point of an open topped vehicle may be used as an access point.
As drop pods count as open-topped vehicles, the doors may be used as access points. Yes, that one is worth people going on Facebook and asking for a clarification. Disembarking from the hull would make most sense. Holy crap, thank you for this, I completely forgot, you just ended the argument. Actually no, they are not. How do you suppose the passengers get out of the thing if the doors can not open.
Yes, it also said that you could draw line of sight through the model. This is not the case anymore. Gluing them shut means its not modeled correctly and you have a representation of a drop pod with its doors blown off rather than a drop pod with its doors blown.
Anyways if they are glued shut the Marines inside are trapped and cannot disembark and therefore are destroyed because the hatches are faulty. Characters armed with only one Relic? You should look at the comments of that image on facebook. Graviton weapons get the nerf bat they deserve.
It always felt cheap that people kept interpreting them as bypassing cover saves. Yeah there were plenty of people who decided they ignored cover. LOTS of people actually.
I never did that to people and they always gave me dumb looks when I told them to roll their saves against my grav weapons. Were you around here when the 6th SM Codex dropped? Thing is, the 7th edition rulebook when talking about being damaged by grav specifically says you can get a cover save. I could understand the question in 6th, but 7ths core rules made it clear. A vehicle may take a save that it has such as cover , whenever it takes a glancing hit, penetrating hit, or any similarly damaging result.
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If Deffkoptas could do a Bombing Run and still shoot, there might be a reason to take bombs. The Ork Codex is bad because of lots of tiny little mistakes. Fix the tiny mistakes and the whole thing would work. The Ghaz Suppliment is extra stinky garbage because of the penalty to mob rule, and the fact that Orks are the only codex that offers formations that would be better taking the same units in a CAD because the formations have a massive penalty to Mob Rule.
I hear all the time that the Ork Codex needs a reboot. I think it needs minor tweaks, and a few points adjustments. Just about every single formation that was released in the new Ghaz dex was an obvious excuse to try to sell more models.
Seriously five battlewagons in a formation? Very few people will have that in their standard Collection. Where the frack is my invuln save?!? Hate to break it to you sweetheart, but claiming to be the top player of ABC means nothing to me. Dice throw math hammer out the window. They can give us back a melee Invuln save that you can use every turn.
I am not asking for S 10 Dethrollers or all bike boyz lists, heck, I never even used them. But sweet googly moogaly, Orks not getting a single save against something like a stomp attack when Knights are just getting more and more common, specially as a hoard army, kills them. FNP does squat against D attacks man! When you are probably the only Ork player in your little club, you can claim to be the top player. Not layer after layer of bad, thoughtless, rules writing?
In a standard game, not tournament min-max, taking of these plus a warboss on bike with biker mob is terrifying. They are in assured assault range in turn 2. Those 11 boyz hit 44 times in CC and if you are a clever cookie, you use Deffkoptas to eat the Overwatch shots.
But to the main point, the book is full of tiny mistakes, this is correct. Many of the problems with the Ork codex can be fixed with a slight correction. Kustom Force Field, back to the original or include only one of the nerfs. Remove the 20 model min requirement from boy units in Goff Dread Mob. Allow to take Ghazghkull as the Warboss in the formation.
I agree, it really is more lots of little things as already pointed out. I am a hardcore tournament player. I think your vision of tournament players is out of whack with reality. I play lots of tournaments. I want them to be passable, to have useful units, wargear, and formations. My skill as a player will take care of winning or losing, so long as the tools are available to me. Regardless of my view of tourney players I agree with your near miss view.
A straight up cad of marines versus orks can actually be really tough due to the marines facing target saturation as already pointed out on here. All I ever want out of a book is internal balance.
Space Marine Codex is the perfect surprise example of this. Everything has a role and can still provide reasonable support after that role is done. I would also like to have more customisation for my characters. I miss the days of old before 5th, where there were 2 pages worth of items you could take on a single character. Then again, this all comes from a guy that enjoys collecting and modelling stuff and would love to have a chance to represent that on battlefield a bit better.
First, the trukks die like toilet paper to a swift breeze, so good luck getting any of them across the board. A formation or two and fixing the Ugly-bot is not, with respect, going to cut the mustard. Agreed on the KFF and cybork body though. You must play on an empty board against Tau and Guard a lot then. People tend to forget that Orks have so many cheap units that roll around in small numbers that, if ignored, cause major damage.
Lootas, Bikes, Deffkoptas, Boyz and Nobz. That adds up to 18 different targets, 6 of those are vehicles. Aim for the Trukks? Okay, Bikes are now free to charge your units, of course you have to get trough possible cover or Inv save before you can actually damage the things. In this scenario, the Lootas are also free to do what they want.
Shoot at the lootas and take out my AT? Aim for the bikes? Orks use cover, manoeuvring and numbers to overwhelm the foe. If your opponent sets the table as a barren wasteland with barely anything to use for cover, you can just walk away.
There is also those that think that the game is solved trough Math Hammering the heck out of the game. You need at least two to dislodge a tactical squad, which is nearly double what that squad cost. Out of curiosity, what are the best assault units in the game outside Marine ones? Striking Scorpions are really the only ones that come to mind, since they have answer to the most dire requirements when it comes to assault units that have to be fulfilled to even consider taking.
Thunderwolves, though I guess they count as marines, Wraiths, seekers daemonettes too , khorne dogs, plague drones and harlequins, off the top of my head and imo. Whoops, I forgot that I always write the dedicated transport as not part of the boy unit price: D, the real total is pts, without upgrades. The rest of the FAQ took the most conservative least powerful approach to everything, and that was a bummer too, especially after seeing the mixed bag that was Tau and Space Marines.
Just to fix the one problem with Ork formations that make them the only formations in all of 40K that taking the exact same units as part of a CAD is more powerful than taking the formations. Ork Dreads are also cheaper than SM dreads. Also dreds effectively get 3 attacks base due to two power claws.
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The same thing that forbids using only helmets on blue bases and claiming that your army is swimming. But thats not the same, Your rhino doesnt have to have the Top, Back and Sides open do they?
No, after they disembark and move away? No, so why would a drop pod have too? I mean if you want to play that route if you Disembark out a rhino using the side you must see into the rhino if you command squad and when out 2 door, then wouldnt there be a LoS passing through the doors?
There was a long discussion on this comment a while ago. Weird how some people will do the darnedest things to get an advantage.
If the doors are closed, the storm bolter has no line of sight and technically cannot fire. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me. I believe that as soon as it hits the doors blow open and stay that way. The answer was both poorly thought out and confusing. But nothing in any rules stat this or that you even have to open them, nor do they say they need to be open to even disembark.
I laughed so hard at this. Like, to the point I want to try this just to see the looks my buddies give me lol. Actually with all the rulings there, if the doors are glued shut they are modelling for an advantage, and if the doors are able to open they are modelling for an advantage. What if you own 13 drop pods and you already glued the doors shut like in 4th edition and now you are a cheater seems legit!
Then you get a template of some sort that you use under the pod and agree that one ca draw a line of sight through the pods. It needs to be clarified better. Got a link to support this? I really think you have been suckered or have mis-read the rules. Some people are arguing that the door is part of the model, but not part of the hull. Once deployed, the doors are opened, then the unit must disembark.
Now you refer to the rules for disembarking, specifically from open-topped vehicles. Any point of an open topped vehicle may be used as a disembarkation point. As the FAQ indicates that the doors now deployed count as part of the model, the full length of the door may be used as a disembarkation point.
That is how people are doing it. So scumbags can model for advantage by having doors swing open and then claim the extra space by RAW, and those same scumfucks are also the guys that just measure 1 fig in a unit for movement and then move the rest willy nilly.
You should provide feedback about them on the facebook page explaining the issue clearly and calmly. You would be surprised the progress they are making. Good god, glaidus pod armies are almost unbeatable now. Physically, you can take the Flesh Tearers detachment for 6 fast slots. Thats 17 pods turn 1 and 18 pods turn 2. You spam objectives and see if you opponent can take them all out. Door open pods turn 1 to restrict movement then closed door pods turn 2 to block sight and fill in dead pod holes.
Well, I actually Had this idea on dakka before this happened. I wanted to make a maze and have my opponent have to navigate it to get to objectives.
The only thing that changed is that the Minotaur Pod Labryinth is now viable competitively and you will get guaranteed laughs or tears. Zone of mortalas board then?
The thing is, 10 pods are too much for them to handle usually, but no reasonable player takes 10 pods to a friendly game. The reason it sucks to play against eldar, usually tau and deathstars is that you do not play against them. They just do what ever they want to and you hope that you survive. Sorry, I have a genuine and perhaps silly question… Who on earth do you play against that has 35 drop pods, much less who will play with them in the way described above?
I call it the Exterminatus list. Not to mention if you take an asset. I saw a guy with a 12x pod gladius at Adepticon So thats a thing… see above for the reason i wanted 35x pods. Well If you buy 17 drop pods and model them, hell you should be able to use them. Have you seen anyone play with more than 10 drop pods? Also I say you either drop pod the pod in with doors open or closed. Other wise, like the post above said, behind cover the marines are swimming or buried in the ground next turn when they can shoot, they are standing up.
I dream of that but good Lord the cost! Ive seen 12x used in a tourney. Thats the most ive seen IRL. What if you bought pods online and they came glued but the ones you own open? I mean theres not much that can be done with how badly pods are built sometimes.
They only disallow specific things that would normally be allowed in other circumstances. Sorry I was talking about opening and closing doors throughout the game. Yeah that is going to cause problems with many people lol. I can see them opening it then closing multi times, or seeing if they can.
It you be very nearsighted to read it as what you can do without considering what you cannot. Both sides of the coin must be evaluated. Most builders fk it up, and glue it shut inadvertently. The rules do not state that the model must be actuated.
The intent of the model is designed to be dynamic. This is not pointed at you personally, only your comment. If you cannot handle it or you take it very personally, I apologize. Where is the rule against using loaded dice? Where is the rule against playing deafening music to make your opponent just give up while you use ear plugs?
My examples are extremes, but they follow the logic that was used. The way I play Drop Pods go like this:. Im going to submit it to the FAQ. When you are probably the only Ork player in your little club, you can claim to be the top player.
Not layer after layer of bad, thoughtless, rules writing? In a standard game, not tournament min-max, taking of these plus a warboss on bike with biker mob is terrifying.
They are in assured assault range in turn 2. Those 11 boyz hit 44 times in CC and if you are a clever cookie, you use Deffkoptas to eat the Overwatch shots. But to the main point, the book is full of tiny mistakes, this is correct. Many of the problems with the Ork codex can be fixed with a slight correction. Kustom Force Field, back to the original or include only one of the nerfs. Remove the 20 model min requirement from boy units in Goff Dread Mob.
Allow to take Ghazghkull as the Warboss in the formation. I agree, it really is more lots of little things as already pointed out. I am a hardcore tournament player. I think your vision of tournament players is out of whack with reality. I play lots of tournaments. I want them to be passable, to have useful units, wargear, and formations. My skill as a player will take care of winning or losing, so long as the tools are available to me.
Regardless of my view of tourney players I agree with your near miss view. A straight up cad of marines versus orks can actually be really tough due to the marines facing target saturation as already pointed out on here.
All I ever want out of a book is internal balance. Space Marine Codex is the perfect surprise example of this. Everything has a role and can still provide reasonable support after that role is done. I would also like to have more customisation for my characters. I miss the days of old before 5th, where there were 2 pages worth of items you could take on a single character.
Then again, this all comes from a guy that enjoys collecting and modelling stuff and would love to have a chance to represent that on battlefield a bit better. First, the trukks die like toilet paper to a swift breeze, so good luck getting any of them across the board.
A formation or two and fixing the Ugly-bot is not, with respect, going to cut the mustard. Agreed on the KFF and cybork body though.
You must play on an empty board against Tau and Guard a lot then. People tend to forget that Orks have so many cheap units that roll around in small numbers that, if ignored, cause major damage. Lootas, Bikes, Deffkoptas, Boyz and Nobz. That adds up to 18 different targets, 6 of those are vehicles.
Aim for the Trukks? Okay, Bikes are now free to charge your units, of course you have to get trough possible cover or Inv save before you can actually damage the things.
In this scenario, the Lootas are also free to do what they want. Shoot at the lootas and take out my AT? Aim for the bikes? Orks use cover, manoeuvring and numbers to overwhelm the foe. If your opponent sets the table as a barren wasteland with barely anything to use for cover, you can just walk away.
There is also those that think that the game is solved trough Math Hammering the heck out of the game. You need at least two to dislodge a tactical squad, which is nearly double what that squad cost. Out of curiosity, what are the best assault units in the game outside Marine ones?
Striking Scorpions are really the only ones that come to mind, since they have answer to the most dire requirements when it comes to assault units that have to be fulfilled to even consider taking. Thunderwolves, though I guess they count as marines, Wraiths, seekers daemonettes too , khorne dogs, plague drones and harlequins, off the top of my head and imo.
Whoops, I forgot that I always write the dedicated transport as not part of the boy unit price: D, the real total is pts, without upgrades. The rest of the FAQ took the most conservative least powerful approach to everything, and that was a bummer too, especially after seeing the mixed bag that was Tau and Space Marines. Just to fix the one problem with Ork formations that make them the only formations in all of 40K that taking the exact same units as part of a CAD is more powerful than taking the formations.
Ork Dreads are also cheaper than SM dreads. Also dreds effectively get 3 attacks base due to two power claws. I think the option to add two further claws making it 5 base is enough of a trade off.
I want something that feels actually a little different. So why does GW hate Orks so much? Did someone get sodomized in a alley by a guy costumed up as the Hulk? So now when ever they see green guys they have to dump on them every chance possible to ease the mental scarring? Ah, well, I remember those times, where Orks had big time with their S10 deffrolla, and nob biker mobs.
It was some kind of proverb: Space Marines are meant to have all the new and cool toys and the best rules with most fun and flexibility. Then comes to bottom of the barrel, this is where rest of the armies in game belong, they are supposed to be forgotten.
If they are accidentally seen by the design team and they decide to update them, they have to follow a certain pattern of rules for them. Everything has to be overpriced 2. If new models are made, they have to be large, useless and ugly. Also more expensive than Baneblade. Design team has to make sure that the book is not fun at all if you want to have even an astronomical chance at winning.
Nobody Jervis is inspired by Orks, in fact they Jervis thinks they are dumb, and would like us not to play them. That is why Orks and Tyranids are the only 2 codexes with army wide special rules that make the player feel bad about playing that army in the form of Mob Rule and Instinctive Behavior. Jervis as head of development is a problem, and hopefully the Age of Sigmar Debackle will get him reassigned to specialist games so that we can get some of the issues fixed.
I personally like the new Mob rule and Instinctive Behaviour rules.
It doesn't make sense to be skeptical both ways in the face of that history. The last couple of years has convinced me that people on the internet are remarkably close to who they really are.
I've never really been much for the "It's ok to act like a jerk on the internet" because it's the internet argument. I think what you see online is representative of the hobby as a whole and I'm tired of people giving the community a pass for it's bad behavior. So I think there is at least some credit to be given there, even if things aren't perfect. As far as the internet goes, whether it "really" represents who people are is a philosophical point I don't care to discuss.
And I'm not even arguing that it's okay to be as awful as you want on the internet with the excuse that it somehow "doesn't matter. Fair enough on both points. I'm not particularly attached to Commissars either. This particular change just didn't seem that well thought out, had an effect on way more than just the problem Conscripts , and it came so soon after another change that we don't really know if a change was still necessary.
I also assume that the playtesters are working with the full set of codices, so current imbalances might be transient anyway. As i said, to our perceptions the change was soon, take into account the lead time in publishing and distributing time, it probably wasn't. All their talk about testing is so much hot garbage. At best they had some half thought out list concepts. I refuse to believe they managed to develop a fully functional testing network out of nowhere even if they understood what that is.
Since I personally know half a dozen of the playtesters and know that they put in quite a lot of time because they no longer go to tournaments, spend a lot of time in games they can't discuss, etc I know that's not true. Game design is hard. Give them some credit. It's not that I disbelieve you, but the amount of stuff that's slipped through — and yes, I agree with you that stuff slips through — implies there's a problem somewhere.
Either the playtesting didn't happen — which from your knowledge, cannot be the case — or the playtesters didn't report issues, or GW ignored the issues. Things like conscripts and, indeed, comissars were simply too obvious to have 'slipped through'. The player base picked up on them on day one, after all. Keep in mind that just because the playtesters say something doesn't obligate GW to change it; after all, different playtesters will have different opinions about the game and how it should be and how different units stack up against each other.
You needn't look any further than this very thread to find such disagreements about where unit power levels sit- while many people believe Conscripts are a dominant force, Andy thinks they are essentially garbage. Why would the playtesters and rules writers at GW be any different in this regard?
But I also don't know the full story of who all the playtesters are and what they did, who they played against, etc, etc, etc. I think it's really premature to say "GW just fucked everything up because they didn't try" when they so very obviously did. Yes, the player base picked up on a lot of these things pretty quickly. Again, look at MtG, arguably the most heavily-playtested game in the world- they have hundreds of people spending weeks or months testing the game, extensive in-house protocols for making sure that cards aren't changed under anyone's nose, and decades of experience and theory about what makes cards good and bad- yet they still pretty regularly have to errata or ban cards for disrupting environments.
I think GW did try. I just think they shouldn't have hyped up how utterly amazingly balanced this edition was, because when compared to that, they come out looking really bad. MTG's actually a useful comparision — sure, they have to ban and errata things. Two or three cards per set? More further down the line ,as the number of interactions increase Urzas, I'm looking at you.
Well, I would argue that "ignoring" someone's advice is different from disagreeing with their assessment. But I guess that's really just a semantics thing, so…. They have errata'd- and even banned- cards after ZERO events. I don't think that alone is an indictment of what they're doing- you can easily interpret it as showing that they are ahead of the game because they're already aware of the problem because of their playtesting.
MtG arguably changes fewer rules, by errata or banning, per set than 40K does. But I don't think that any kind of numerical comparison between the two of them is meaningful, since they release product in totally different ways and their respective games don't function at all the same. Cardss banned after no events: I haven't played MTG for awhile, is this something that's happened in the more recent blocks, or am I just forgetting something?
The point I was sort of trying to make is that Magic does indeed have a few things slip through, but it's rare, apparently for them to be needing to mess with the rules close to release, whereas every single released codex, and the main rules themselves, have had a week 1 errata for 40k.
At this point it is increasingly clear that the initial Indexes had little change from the external playtesting. The Codexes may reflect that initial feedback from before release but clearly the exposure to thousands of players each desperately trying to find a way to break out of the strait-jacket of balance so they can win games has shown up some weaknesses.
Those appear to be getting addressed largely in FAQ that come out with the Codex releases. Game design is hard but fixing the inevitable problems with any game release starts with accepting that nothing this complex will ever be perfect and adopting a listening and watching attitude. That attitude change is clearly on show and is highly encouraging. One last point; playtesting is a form of testing. I manage testing for a living and I can say that the mindset required for good testing is very nearly incompatible with the mindset required for developing a thing in the first place.
Extremely few people can do both well — the move to external play testing was a very good idea. Unfortunately even using independent power players has its drawbacks, they are not professional testers and I sometimes think I can see where they may have missed things as a result of that lack of training and experience.
That is not meant to be a criticism of those people, nobody said they were trained test professionals and it would be unfair to expect it of them, it is just an observation. Heh, I had a feeling you probably knew some.
I feel bad for the playtesters, because GW talked big about it and raised expectations. This is a mammoth undertaking that should have been done primarily in house, and should have been given way more resources. I appreciate what those players have given up to try to make a better game.
My frustration is with GW, not the testers. GW touts free rules, then gives you a portion of the core rules for free. They say extensive playtesting, but a brief look at the index reveals they are nowhere near internal balance.
If GW could just be up front about what they are doing, at least some of us would be more patient and understanding.
Instead they keep overselling things and pissing people off. In-house is how GW had done their previous playtesting, and I think the evidence was pretty overwhelming that they simply couldn't handle that. There just aren't that many good players working for GW, or players with the right mindset to test a rules system to breaking.
Problems with balance don't mean there wasn't any playtesting- as I said above to Alastores, even heavily-playtested games like MtG, Overwatch, etc, have things slip through the cracks. The biggest problem with in house playtesting is that if everyone tends towards the same 'approach' to the game, you miss huge chunks of what could happen. GW was really, really poor for this before.
Their internal playtesters all approached the game the same way, and valued things the same way. The rest of the world really just didn't — see the difference in value they and we placed on Plasma pistols. Barring the pro-infantry bias, which is likely a deliberate choice, this doesn't seem to be as big of a deal this time, so at least having different types of playtesters is helping.
Don't get me wrong. I do not doubt someone played test games. I do doubt that feedback came back with any kind of useful system or was processed by the developers in a meaningful way once it arrived.
Yes, game design is hard. I also work with people every day who design and build hermetically sealed pumps for things like rocket fuel that would ignite at air contact or boiling hot corrosives. They don't drip a little bit because it is hard to design or build that. GW gets treated like toddlers for trying. But they are the titan of the industry with more resources with anyone else and they certainly didn't hold back with their boasts of what this edition would be.
The impression I get is that instead of doing testing in house and then outsourcing the fine points, they just punted the entire project. Probably because they don't know how to do it themselves. I think the "extensive" was relative. Compared to what they've done in the past, this is extensive. CB playtests the shit out of their rules and they were clever enough to set up the tournament system and army builder to let them mine player data. GW can't compete with that, not yet anyway.
But even then, with all the work they do, all three of those games have models that are pretty universally understood to be too powerful as well as abilities whose text allows weird loopholes or is self-contradictory. I love Infinity, but 2E was a clusterfuck, and Malifaux 1E likewise. I hope GW gets wise to the data opportunity though. Sure, a list builder and tournament system won't catch everything, but it will give you a significant sample to judge. Hopefully it won't take GW ten years to get 40k sorted like it did for Malifaux and Infinity.
Infinity spoils you is very true. It is astonishingly hard to deal with GW's nonsense after that. Yes, other systems aren't perfect either. And yes they used to be worse. But say Infinity second Edition was just that. The second edition of an outsider game with little resources.
They stuck the landing at the third try. This isn't some new experiment. We are in the 8th edition of this nonsense. Created by a company with the means to do virtually anything the competition does without any trouble. That they don't data mine is a whole different story but then they were proud about not even knowing who their audience is so baby steps I guess.
I still think the tester got thrown those Index Lists, had a chance to weed out the absolutely murderously worst offenders and had the rest of the data ignored because the guys in charge don't know what to do with it.
And from how they usually handle things I'd put money on them developing the Codices up from that with even less input. Well i'm sure you will agree I argued as strongly as anyone that I thought that they were junk and didn't really rate them, the fact that I personally could rip them to pieces and was actually happy for my opponent to spend as much as they liked on conscripts and commissars doesn't really matter. I think GW have taken more the line that they want LD to be a thing, and possibly regret giving so many get out of jail free cards as far is it concerned to the armies, lets's look at what Leadership scores actually mean to units first of all, units with 5 members.
You will fight to the last man, it will take something specifically scary wiping out the other 4 members of your squad in one turn for there even to be a chance that you will run. If you lose more than half your squad, it might be time to consider falling back, if not, fight to the last man. One person getting killed is enough to cause concern, losing half your squad it's fleeing time.
That gives you a clue of what the games are trying to represent, obviously its intended to take some artisitic liscense, but cultists and conscripts should be running the second they meet any kind of resistance. T'au Bonding Knife Ritual: Essentially, A slightly weird one, it reduces the amount who run, cos of weird religious beliefs, fair enough really, religion has always been a great reason to fight. We don't run because we are mind slaves to a far greater being, oh wait oh my god where did the great mind being go?!?!
Fantastic, epitomising the most human of traditions, we aren't scared because there are loads of us, it works beautifully both thematically and the system, a super psychically enhanced mob that is totally immune until it suffers enough casualties to scare it. Imp Guard we only lose one: Utterly terrible, it doesn't scale with casualties inflicted, its not thematic it makes no sense, sure if this was the effect on a warlord titan I think it would be fine, having a machine that can quite literally crush an army with one stomp it's fine, but from a commissar, whois in facr, considerably less scary than an inquisitor?
Commisars power level is around the 1 less flees than should level, let alone the effect it has on game balance. So in that sample I'd say we heave one superbly written special rule, one spectacularly bad one, one that's very nice bit of thematic writing but doesn't do that much, and one that is really nicely thought out and just needs a little polish to be better, roughly along the lines of, you can be synapse if you want but lose char while you are.
That's not bad for writing rules really, even the commissar is cool thematically, just wrong in terms of power level. These nerfs are actually not enough, to fix the issue, they need to continue with the tyranid book to nerf the way synapse works, and finish off with nerfs to the pistol and any remaining ways to guarantee you pass morale checks, unless in a case such as Deathwing terminators, they really mean you to auto pass.
Until they do so, leadership is just a mechanic that means sometimes you lose an extra model or two. Whilst that is the case, the -massive- amount of units that can do things to leadership and care about leadership are utterly pointless.
So I hope they will wait a bit, drop the Tyranid codex and finish off the run making sure that leadership is something that matters in 40k. Essentially, it should be on you to deal with the issues created by low LD troops, not a requirement that your opponent kill off the model in your army that makes you immune.
For the public, the Imp Guard Codex is a few weeks old, in reality it's likely been set in stone for over months, just the time required for publication and distribution means that the product has to be signed off way before. Compare that to errata, which takes them I would guess than a day to implement once they are sure. It messed with leadership or minor survivability who cares it's meaningless, no one can run an army that stacks -6 LD roll two dice pick the highest, because all that investment is pointless vs guard and nids.
It's likely that as they were writing the imp guard codex and the Eldar codex they really came to understand how bad the LD issue was, and just as likely tyranids being written at the same time they see the same thing.
They are not going to drop the errata on the imp guard codex the second it's released, it's financial suicide, hyping people up getting people enthusiastic with huge buffs to russes and regiment rules, is not going to work well if you drop the rules oh yeah btw we nerfed your infantry into paste.
Welcome to the modern world, businesses do what they need to make money and care zero about a consumer who will almost certainly buy their product anyway. I think here, you need to understand one thing.
Based on previous rants and your lack of respect for the people you respond to, I am not even going to take the time to read your post. He has a point. You start from the point of view that you are automatically right, and then move goal posts and ignore what people are saying.
This is massive nerf to IG generally. Now nearly the only viable IG build will be leman ruses. This was never a problem, they seemed to institute the change just because there was a BOLS article about it. No new comment system, it looks like IntenseDebate had a brief outage so the site fell back to the standard WordPress comment system.
Are things back to normal for you now? The worse thing about this game for some time has been the community, particularly as it exists on the internet.
If GW is just going to blindly follow the 40k internet community then this will not end well. Yes, I appreciate the irony of making the comment on this site. Ld 9 is only lord commissar. And he is pricey as hell. Also, he will still not give you benefits for your infantry squads…its better to buy another squad than to take him.
There are other places to get ld buffs. It is always bad, the average result is always worse, and it is the commies Only unique rule. Sure, but Inquisitors are in a different faction and have some issues of their own namely, upgrading to a psyker is currently free, a fact that is likely to change when they get a codex release.
But that wasn't the argument. The argument is that Lord Commissars are expensive, which they most certainly are not. The Leadership bubble they provide is still useful though it's not necessarily the only or best option available to the army and they are still a relatively-cheap option to fill an HQ slot while still bringing something else to the table. You don't take a Lord Commissar to fill an HQ slot. You take them to fill a role.
A role which they are now bad at. So in the context of Guard, he is expensive. Special weapon teams get a great buff too. On their own these units risk models running away with even a single casualty. I wouldn't anticipate that particular loophole surviving the release of Codex: Genestealer Cults, but it's certainly arguable for now. You are, you only pick relics when you already know the army you face in tournaments, this needs to be changed obviously, but lets give them a few weeks to implement it.
Armies are going to need to decide what relics they take and what CP they spend on relics in the army creation step, rather than before battle, after all it's pretty preposterous to think an army is running around with all these things and just brings the specific ones it wants to a given battle.
Relic is still amazing in general, put it on a tank commander or pask and now your tanks can take crush them into dust whilst re-rolling 1's of hits and wounds. Err, be careful just bandying the word heretic around, it was fine when we had Commissars in charge, they just shot you. The inquisitors use you as flesh puppets for their bound daemons. I actually quite like the idea that Commissars are only useful in a certain Morale range. It's like there's a tipping point where the troops are more scared of the enemy than the Commissar.
Shooting people might help keep the cowards in line, but it's a terrible way to try to stop a mass panic. The wording of "The first time…" is definitely way more ambiguous than it should be, though.
Interpretations range from it applying the first time each turn for each unit, all the way through to the first time per game and then never again. Since that's going to have to get reworded, we might see them stepping back from mandatory execution and reroll as well. But I personally hope not. Yep I agree, there are 3 things for people to argue about in this one little FAQ. I'd agree if you were right but the summary execution rule is now always bad. If you can get LD from any other source and there are lots of sources then the Commissars aren't useful in any morale range.
For the record, I did the maths, and the new Summary Execution rule is strictly a drawback — it results in same-or-more expected casualties for any given LD test. For all units, or just for conscripts? And is it taking into account the Commisar's positive effect on Leadership? With conscripts, for example, and assuming you're deep enough that you auto-fail the test, the reroll is irrelevant and the net effect of a Commisar is three fewer casualties, I believe?
No you see nEli is talking about the one unique rule commies have, summary execution. The ld buff is good, but can be got elsewhere. The maths show summary execution makes things worse, so the only unique thing commies give your army is making More units flee battle.
Did GW realise this? Yes as I stated, it does reduce casualties on net, but spending 30 points on a commissar to save 9 points of conscripts is.. You can get an LD9 bubble from a 55 point Inquisitor 15 points over a Primaris Psyker and save 15 points of Conscripts — a much better buy. For LD10 there's Greyfax — or take it to 11 with the "Inspiring Leader" rulebook Warlord trait You do need to split the Inquisitor out to a separate detachment — for example, the one you're taking Celestine in.
And sorry, misread your comment, you're right that you already did the math there and I missed it. In the list of work-arounds, don't forget the 'Fight to the Death' stratagem. For 1CP you get to take a Morale test on D3 rather than D6, which will at least reduce the losses a squad takes especially when combined with the Commissar's leadership bubble.
I've seen a much more sensible suggestion for Commissars — 'If a unit fails a morale test within 6" of a Commissar, you may remove one model in that unit as a casualty, If you do, the unit counts as having rolled a '1' for morale. On the other hand, the Imperium fucking everything up because they are a bit too kill-happy is an amusing image. The commissars are blowing our men's brains out left, right and centre, but somehow that hasn't improved morale!
Do you think we should reverse that decision? Bit saddened by the change to the tallarn doctrine and dagger, rather enjoyed outflanking tank commanders. Any ideas on best thing to outflank now?
In fact, I am pretty certain if you do the math, they are just impossible to field over Leman russes in both firepower and resilience unless Vostroyan. I think the best way to use the strategy now is to shift your normal defensive screening units into an aggressive posture when you think the enemy army allows it. Lets say you have an army that contains within it a Bullgryn screen and a couple of psykers to buff them. None of these units benefit from being any regiment so it is safe to dump them into a supreme command Tallarn Detachment, perhaps you have a super heavy tank you field too and maybe a third psyker, maybe a tank commander, all that matters is that you have units with the tallarn keyword.
I don't think as a strategy, building an army around either strategy has been effective even before the nerf, I might be wrong, maybe something I didn't consider, but in a straight up fight to test it, a deep striking stormlord lost to a vostroyan super heavy that deployed behind a screen. Its a poorly made FAQ. One thing is to nerf the commi, the other is to totally destroy the unit….
And that was not needed at all…they could just FAQed the Raw Recruits ability the conscripts have to adress all the players who played against hordes of conscripts…. I don't see this a a problem. If a unit loses 14 models they are going to have a very hard time greatly reducing casualties from fleeing anyway.
If its a "must have" unit, then they are better served using the strategem that autopasses the check. As for the Valhalan swap, if you aren't using Valhalan models, and the entire army is painted the same yet different detachments are using different rules, thats a level of gamesmanship that violates the integrity of the game IMO.
You could easily just say that your conscript troops, which are prisoners and thus separate from the rest of your army, come from a Valhallan planet fluffy , and equipped like the rest of your army. You could say that they were trained differently, specifically to not run away, because they are not standard soldiers and are likely to have morale issues. Saying it violates the integrity of the game is comical. Nobody is going to throw their 30, 50, 60 conscript blob into a vat of paint stripper to repaint them because of an FAQ rules change, but people might want their units to be viable.
True, but I'd be pretty annoyed at an opponent that fielded three regiments that all looked exactly the same. At least make sure there's a visual distinction. Which is pretty easy already for Guard. I'm not advocating that anyone strip their army. I am saying that the original article implies it doesn't take much to put valhalans into the army, just make a new detachment and ad a character or two. It implies that the author is saying to use the models you already have but divide them into different detachments with different faction special rules.
Its legal technically, but I would have an issue if my opponent had multiple rule sets, maximizing efficacy while having everything painted the same way. Nobody said it was going to be easy to change and nobody said paint them all the same. Or you can just put a white dot on the rim of the base of those troops. It's pretty easy to differentiate sensibly while being painted the same.
Hi Finley — it's just a list of ideas for people who are affected by these changes. It wouldn't be complete without including 'Consider playing Valhallan'. Some players might just re-brand their units, and others might go the whole way with modifying models with cloaks or trench coats, scouring ebay for old OOP models, repainting their cadians or basing their troops on ice. The latter approach is far better, but as long as the models are clear to the opponent the former shouldn't violate the integrity of the game.
I don't think it's too unreasonable either. If you go a lord commie than its more than reasonable with the warlord trait. It will have the same overall effect as the commie did before the nurf, oh no now guard players now have to make a hard choice instead of the auto includes before the nurf. Is it realy too much to ask a competative play to chose if they want there conscript meat shield for the shadowsword to remain as a meat shield or do you want all close to your warlord to have those rerols.
This I'm sure will get reworded again but I hope it effectively does the same thing. Stormlord-centered builds are going to be the better way to run Guard, simply because there's no bad loadout for them and their passengers save maybe Scions. When you are fielding a super heavy tank, you really want a good anti tank armament.
That said, a Vostroyan Super heavy tank does make a really nice screen vs assault if loaded up with Heavy Flamers and lascannons. As someone getting back into the game after a long hiatus this FAQ is pretty much a punch in the gut. How is anyone supposed to build an army when GW is going to just randomly invalidate multiple units?
This is no way to grow a game. Play vs anyone else they will be fine with it. It is better to have them actually willing to nerf things, than their old model which is power creep through the roof that just makes things garbage the second a new codex comes out.
This is going to make building up armies a pain. And I think it will backfire. People will be pissed they put so much work in something they then can't use like they thought. Hmmm you seem to be under the impression this is the first change like this? Indexes drop, commissar conscript interaction is good, top tier, probably the second best screening unit in the game. Horrors are nerfed, making conscripts seem stronger, they are in fact still slightly worse as a screen than horrors.
Codex Chaos space marines — cultists take over from horrors, the many deep strike threats has by now already forced conscripts to be if not worse, only on par with scouts as a means to stop assault armies. Codex Grey knights — confirms strike squads places as the single best imperium troop choice, relegating conscripts once and for all to the screening role.
Codex Death Guard — Unleashes the poxwalker army that forever consigns conscripts to be never played at a tournament level, doing so means you face a matchup you instantly lose as all your weak infantry get turned into zombies.
As of yet there is no nerf to this army. Codex Adeptus Militarum — conscripts are nerfed despite already falling behind other troops, in the aftermath, but no one cares, because the buffs to russes give you an answer to the infantry horde armies anyway, and everything is much cooler so who cares. Also the stratagem of doom appears, rip game balance.
Errata must come out to fix the Take Cover! You are quite right, right now is not a time to go buy models for an army based on their power level, nor is it time to go be buying books that you will use as the basis of the rules, if games workshop want me to buy any more books, they will have to refund me for the ones I bought already, PDF time.
However, the game is getting more and more balanced, there is no "one army to rule them all". Armies are now at the stage that going unbeaten is about a being skillful b being lucky and c just not facing anyone playing an army that crushes you just moderately well.
I have faith that the monster that is the pox walker army will get smacked with the beat stick it deserves, with some rule like "no unit can ever contain more than double the models it started the game with".
Right now is no time to buy books or models. Okay you think it gets more and more balanced and hope it turns out good. I think it is turning into a clusterfuck that will crash and burn.
In the end we both only got the hope a system there you can actualy plan and build an army comes out at the other end. Did you play in 7th Edition? Because compared to that, the situation we have right now is an idlyllic paradise of calmness and balance.
The game isn't going to "crash and burn" because Conscripts were nerfed. They were too powerful, everyone knew they were too powerful, and GW did something about it. There's absolutely nothing to be surprised about there. I quit 7th Edition but that means I played it so yeah. That's not saying anything though. That's like saying they got the temperature under control, have you been in the sun?! And it's not about the conscripts. It's about a massive relaunch that is already turning into an absolute sea of special rules and about releasing premium product books that aren't even valid long enough to finish shipping to some people.
I just think they don't deliver anything nearly close to what they hype and the same people who got burned 7th will not come back if it happens to them again.
I'm one of those idiots who never seems to get away after all. The Death Korps and Elysian Commissars page 64 and 73 were nerfed, but the Death Rider Commissar page 66 managed to gallop away with his bolt pistol intact and keep full-fat rules. And unfortunately, with up to 15 smite-spamming Malefic Lords showing up on tables around the world, FW took the time to update the rules as follows:.
That was a while back with the first FAQs — when malefic lords everywhere wasn't really a thing, and people were more bombarding them over all the stupid stuff that just didn't work, rather than the OP stuff.
I very much doubt Forge World rules writers and Games workshop rules writers work in a vacumn, I'd assume at very least there is some communication if they are not the same people.
There is an element of many forge world rules that implies to me different people wrote them, but that was at a time everything needed rules by a set date, as the rules writers have less and less to do I would expect them to go back and fix some of these issues. I still expect a global change to smite, I have mentioned before that if zoanthropes came in units of 1, then you would have a go to top tier army, which is because the smite rules are terrible.
From a rules writing perspective, the power is intended as a back up when your psykers power is of no use, and when you only have 3 powers to use that occurs often, now that factions have between 6 and 12 powers you will see smite heavily nerfed it simply isn't fulfilling the roll it's intended to. I know that FW rules were, in the past, written by a completely different crew.
However, I am told that the lead writer for them passed away recently, which has left things in complete chaos, which may explain why stuff is such a mess for them. It's quite plausible that GW will step in or send someone in to take over the rules writing for them in the near future, or already has and we simply haven't seen the release of any of their work yet.
I think Smite is intended to be a little more than a "backup" power, as it's the primary attack power in the game. For most psykers in the game, it is balanced just fine- it's only the uber-cheap ones like Primaris Psykers and Malefic Lords where it is a problem.
No one hates the pt Chaos Sorcerer casting Smite, only the 30pt guy. One thing I will say for Forge World, there is a lot of flavour in some of the rules, really bringing models to life and making me want to play them even if the rules are not great, I still it is cool. And you are totally right, that on expensive models smite does seem balanced, which is because the models are over costed, most characters while being very cool, are simply not worth fielding, they don't do enough and are way too easy to kill.
But I don't think it's the primary attack power. Deathguard as an example I run with 3 psykers in, Necrosius, Typhus and Mortarion. Do I want all these psykers? That gives me 6 psychic power casts and 7 known powers. So we know i'm almost certain to cast some smites. The only reason that the original smite rules are still needed is about to get its codex, nids. With an average of Hq all casting psychic powers, it is very often in 'nid armies that you have casts you cannot use, because all psychic powers are cast and you can't cast smite twice.
If they have 6 powers to pick from, that will be the end of that, their HQs are too expensive and their troops way too good for you take be taking HQs when you can take troops. It was a good rule for the game aside from it's abuse but it isn't needed any more, and because of its abuse, it now needs to be severely restricted.
It's now close to useless as a rules book, in fact i'd go as far to say as it is useless, without the errata you simply cannot play the game using it. Make no mistake, we are paying for a premium luxury item, I have sent back every single sprue with even the slightest flaw, simply because it is unacceptable quality not to.
The issue is the astra Militarum book is now utterly useless to me. I actually decided there was no way they would not errata things so didn't purchase any imp guard stuff, which is good news for me, given how i sevrely doubt any imp guard army is viable in face of eldar now.
Furthermore, as i have said repeatedly, conscripts were very beatable, you had to understand how the game worked, and know how to game your assault units yes its weird to have a unit charge then spend it's time microing around the back of people, not very cinematic but unless they change the assult rules that will always happen. Now imp guard are just utterly screwed.
I feel pretty much obliged to go double psyker Bullgryn just to provide something of a melee shield. I think the Commissar still has utility for 10 man infantry squads but not so much for Conscripts and I just don't care.
The math-hammer is a little tricky here so I'm not certain I've got this right. If anything I'm underestimating the chance of a backfire but I'd appreciate the check.
So your commissar has more odds of hindering you past 7 casualties than helping, but at that point you're probably buggered anyway. With a "may reroll" keyword FAQ he would obviously be more helpful. He can still add cheap value to cheap bubblewrap without giving up a command squad slot, you just need to use 10 man inf squads instead.
Obviously for Mordia and Catachan this isn't so relevant and you'd need a Lord Commissar to matter. However, chance of backfire is only half of the picture: For example, 3 casualties: On average, I get the following: Average morale losses ld 8: Average morale losses commissar:. So, commissar is consistently either worse, or exactly the same 4 and 5 dead. Calculations essentially based on average casualties on a reroll averaged with the chance of failure.
Doesn't take into account 'everybody's dead' though, or look at chances of commissar's helping vs same vs not helping, just an average. But…that doesn't really look at all useful. Ld8 buff is better even with summary execution until you get into auto fail territory. But as previously mentioned, there are better sources of ld buffs.
Gah, what did you do to my formatting? Okay, I don't even care about the exact changes but this is not feasible. It was already ridiculous you couldn't rely on your book not being replaced after just a year but this makes any planning of an army impossible. At this point what you wanted to build for might be invalidated before you are even done glueing the first minis you ordered, much less having finished or god forbid started painting.
This whole edition felt a whole lot like Games Workshop flailing about and making a mess because they realised they need to swim but decided to keep designers who don't know how. And this is just more proof of that. And if they put rules that are not tested enough to not need replacement within weeks in books then their new system of giving every rule its own name, even if it is the same rule as another will blow up in their face.
They'll have to release a spreadshit just to fix something like the million new versions of Feel no Pain if that ever comes up. Rules-materials bloat is already about as bad as it was towards the end of 7th with chapter approved due in December guaranteed to make more changes and Codexes getting completely overhauled inside of a month.
I'm painting Infinity and waiting till this mess exploded and they get someone with some sense in charge. Which may not happen. Well, the second bit. I'm pretty sure the first will.
As you say it is already an absolute mess. K, so, what your saying is, you don't want to play GW games anymore, and even thought they make a step in the right direction of making sure rules imbalances are dealt with, you would rather play something else that may or may not be any more balanced?
That is absolutely what you could read from my post. I'm giving them a year and change. If things haven't settled by next fall, I'll move on. I was excited for a hot minute though. I'm in a sort of lucky state in between armies right now. Building up a Genestealer Cult and got a massive SoB army incoming. I'm gonna admit I regret the Kickstarter for those now because I have zero trust I'lll get them and have a playable game for them. I'll build the Cult right from the start so that it can also function in Warpath if needs must.
Not that I'd be happy with that. My previously active Necron army is sold so I am pretty much forced to sit out the first issues anyway. But as things currently look I got to admit that feeling of just having nothing tied to their spasming flailing is a pretty nice feeling. It won't last though, I'll get those Sisters now if I want or not so I'll hope for the best. Mind you "the best" I hope for is either an "Uncharted Empires" for Warpath or this bollocks Edition crashing within a year and GW miraculously hiring someone who can write rules.
Not exactly great chances but hey it's a Sisters army, they pray and stuff. Also not let you remove model where you want but always in front….. Those 2 changes from 7th basically buffed to stratosphere any blob army. Stop making a logic argument please. Everyone knows GW are shit now for trying to do a good job and for screwing over Waac players. Next thing we know you will try and tell us how a commie can still help man units.
I mean conscripts being so iconic with IG every guard player out there would probably only have a few non conscript units, what are they to do with all there useless conscript models. With any luck with all this rage quitting going on I'll be able to pick up an army with just a few tears for payment. Unfortunately they now serve the whims of Tychus so I wouldn't call it an unqualified success on his part. Whilst we are on the subject of rules changes and errata, in recent games we had a couple of queries come up:.
It seems kind of weird that they can I mean they were exalted into their new form, but tit says they were slain, and it doesn't say this model can't fight so he sort of seems to be allowed to.
There doesn't seem to be any restriction at all in where they are placed, I would have been quite easily able to place models already in combat with enemy troops and totally ignore over watch if I wanted I didn't cos I wanted the charge to get them further across the map , I had 47 pox walkers by the fight phase on turn 1, 78 by the time the pox walkers fought, and when the dust settled.
We also wondered if the newly placed pox walkers who hadn't charged could still fight in the fight phase, I mean, they could be placed in 1" of enemies, and easily placed within 1" of a pox walker who was within an inch. He can roll on both Boon tables, but as the two stratagems have the same name, I do not believe you can activate them both in the same turn.
Whether he can stack two bonuses to the same characteristic is somewhat more unclear; I would be inclined towards allowing it, as many of the boons have different names. It's weird, but they totally can. It is explicitly a new model added to your army and not the same model that was slain, so they are eligible to be selected to fight. I think the most reasonable interpretation would be that when you add new models to the unit, you have to place them all simultenously- so all of the new models would need to be within coherency of the existing models in the unit.
This could potentially allow you to "chain" into combat if you had several sequences of placing models, or you started exceptionally close to the enemy, but I wouldn't be surprised if GQ FAQed that one sooner or later. However, as of currently, it's legal. Thanks, yeah I hope it is clarified at some point, maybe we'll get a set of "these are golden rules" in chapter approved that makes everything that does a certain thing work the same way. Don't know specifics of wording though. Seems likely to be FAQed out though.
Do you pay reinforcement points? Some rules allow me to add models to a unit during the battle e. Where are those models set up?
Unless otherwise stated, these new models are placed anywhere that is more than 1" from any enemy model and still within unit coherency of a model in its own unit that was itself on the battlefield at the start of the phase in which the new model was created. Note that if you cannot set up a new model on the battlefield because there is no room, it is simply not set up.
As to the second part… Apart from things that are answered by the above Wouldn't they be placed at the end of the phase, or at least after their unit had fought, thus disqualifying them unless the latter and someone else killed stuff in the same combat I guess they could fight…? K that's really good news. That is not undoable by enemy means, but it certainly stretches the resources you have, especially if running super heavy with it.
Losing Mortarion from melee I think is not bearable, he is the main source of pox walkers in the list creating between a turn from imp infantry.
For the second part, we have been assuming that since the pox walkers choose when they fight last of all chargers if they can and the models are still the same unit, it doesn't matter that the models themselves didn't charge, because the unit they are part of did. I just wasn't sure on sequencing. I seemed to remember that new pox walkers were added at the end of the phase i. The more I think about this change the less I like it.
The leadership aura is really the only thing that the commissar has going for him. And on top of that when you take heavy casualties and just REALLY need your last one or two guys to stick around the stupid execution rule is just as likely to finish off your squad as keep it around.
Clasic commissars are dead. Its either lord commi, inquisitor, valhalans, or just run squads without a character buff to morale…. Ok… this change is totally detrimental. I know its "fluffy" and easy to piss on how guard have an insultingly low care for their bulk manufactured equipment and troops but running a unit to prove as a liability on average is just bad. I know this adds relevancy to certain regiments but now the entirety of Oficio Praefectus is outclassed by inquisitors. If they want to nerf conscripts further, make the commissar execute on D3 or even D6 against conscripts, this new ability is just burning 30 points that guard players universally had.
I also really hope they fix the Eradicator gun, its only made more effective v. I'd like to see it fill the niche as a camping denier, infantry killer, as it seems to try to be. I think an ability like the following should be added to provide uniqueness and an actual damn purpose. Whenever it hits a unit, place a marker, any NON-VEHICLE models within 6" of the marker, until beginning of your next turn, receive D3 mortal wounds due to nuclear fallout, causing great area denial v.
Quick update — I tried a game as a test, 90 using conscripts but subbing in an Inquisitor leadership 9 bubble to replace the old commissar. The mission and objectives allowed me to keep 3 units of Cons in the bubble for as long as they lasted.
Without the Inquisitor or any other LD buff, it would have been 35 more conscripts dead ie as far as I could work out, his LD9 saved 16 over the course of the game. With a Commissar instead of Inquisitor, it would have been 27 more infantry dead than under the old rules this is a combination of LD8 instead of 9 and the involuntary executions when both first and second dice will result in failures.
And it's that last point Commissar that really makes the Commissar look obsolete. You also have to take into account that inquisitors are also Psykers and are usually more effective as combatants. I like the idea of a Russissar with a Regimental Standard in theory. Should give at least a few units LD10, at least until the Russ goes down. It wouldn't be a GW codex if there wasn't at least a couple of units that are bad at their intended jobs.
The Commissar can hang out next to the Vanquisher Russ cheer from the sidelines. Didn't they buff the Vanquisher though? AFAIK, it got the same buff that the other tanks got, meaning it is still worse at damaging armored targets then the vanilla Russ. Alternate idea for the rule change: Efficient, knowledgeable, intelligent, honest, reliable.
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